Happy Saturnalia!
FBI Agent: Saturnalia
Partner: It's the original Ancient Roman holiday. Before Christmas was intorduced
FBI Agent: Oh okay.
FBI Agent: Why celebrate it?
Partner: Because I'm not a Christian, but I feel a bit mean not celebrating the hoidays with those around me.
FBI Agent: Why aren't you a Christian?
Partner: Because it's a made up religion. Christmas day was originally the birthday of Mithras
Partner: A roman god
FBI Agent: A contrived religion eh. What wasn't "made up"? Everything is "made up." How can you trus one thing and not the other?
Partner: I don't believe in Mithras, But remeber where Christianity started. In Ancient Rome. They just changed tzhe names
FBI Agent: Christianity is unique with superficial similarities aside.
Partner: Mithras was called the light of the woröd, and could forgive your sins.
FBI Agent: False.
Partner: Unfortunately not
FBI Agent: I checked the sources for that claim, they don't hold water.
Partner: And you thing the bible does?
FBI Agent: Outside sources do.
FBI Agent: A historical Jesus, check. The Israelites’ Exodus, check.
FBI Agent: Go check Mtn. Sinai.
Partner: Compiled 300 AD, by the Holy Roman Emporer
FBI Agent: There's a huge black spot on that summit.
FBI Agent: The Bible we possess is 95% accurate when compared to other manuscripts.
FBI Agent: Translations aside, of course.
Partner: Mithras was the most popular God in rome at the time
Partner: The Old testament was not coified until around 100AD
FBI Agent: Religions were born and died.
FBI Agent: The Judeo-Christian religion is the oldest religion, to my knowledge.
FBI Agent: How can that be?
FBI Agent: It's still the most popular in our world.
Partner: The Judaism was preceeded by Hamurabi
Partner: These religions were all man made developments
Partner: Buddha was around about 500 bc
Partner: Hinuism is the oldest current religion
Partner: Hinduism
FBI Agent: Wow
FBI Agent: I can't type
Partner: In the books written by Moses. How did he write about his own death?
FBI Agent: Ok, I can answer that.
Partner: And Deuteronomy is completely artificial
FBI Agent: He prophesied.
Partner: No. He described!
FBI Agent: That doesn't negate that option.
Partner: Remeber, these religions were all of Oral tradition. The Jewish scribes compiled the books of the old testament
Partner: Anyway, It is not for me to tell you what to believe. If you are a better Human being because of your faith then I am happy for you
FBI Agent: Dueteronomy details rituals and rules for the better good of the people in their contemporary circumstances. It was the best, as I see it, layout for action for the people to avoid entrance of other religions in their day to their own.
Partner: And so many under penalty of death
FBI Agent: The Jewish scribes were very diligent, too.
Partner: not very nice
FBI Agent: They were careful to write down precisely everything.
Partner: As in Islam
FBI Agent: Islam has a self contradictory God.
FBI Agent: He therefore cannot be a real God.
FBI Agent: The prophet who gave rise to Islam spread his religion through conquest.
Partner: Hell does not exist in the Old Testament. That was introduced by the Romans, based on their idea of Hades
FBI Agent: No.
FBI Agent: I can identify several passages from the Old Testament that speak of Hell.
Partner: Really?
FBI Agent: Yep.
FBI Agent: Want two?
Partner: an exmaple?
FBI Agent: Like a verse.
Partner: yes
Partner: I have my kindle here. I can be educated if you wish
Partner: I have a copy of the KJV
FBI Agent: Haha
Partner: and I will be more than happy to check
FBI Agent: KJV I'm afraid isn't one I use.
FBI Agent: I can.
FBI Agent: But there are too many inconsistencies in it translation wise.
Partner: Please, enlighten me
FBI Agent: Sure.
Partner: Hell in the Old Testament?
FBI Agent: It was translated apparently in a time when language wasn't as developed as ours is now.
FBI Agent: Oh ok.
FBI Agent: I mistakenly thought you were referring to the KJV.
FBI Agent: I got it.
Partner: I think they used the finest linguist to interpret the Latin scripts for KJV
FBI Agent: 2 Samuel 22:6
Partner: They weren't too fluent in Aromaic
Partner: The sorrows of hell isn't the same as perpetual condemnation
FBI Agent: Well, ok. It is good for that and other reasons. But the downsides really require that check the Hebrew/Greek/Aromaic on your own on many passages to get a more clearer, better understanding.
Partner: and the greeks had already introduced the idea of hades long before this was written
FBI Agent: It's not one I use is all.
FBI Agent: Well.
FBI Agent: It does speak of Hell.
FBI Agent: That's what you asked for.
FBI Agent: I'm not sure what other Hell was envisioned in those days.
Partner: But not of eternal condemnation
FBI Agent: I cannot locate the other passage :(
FBI Agent: But I know there is at least one more.
Partner: I hope you get comfort from the commandments. Question: You were looking for Tits and Ass. Doesn't Jseus say somthing about that?
FBI Agent: Well, that's not very nice of you to say.
FBI Agent: Or ask rather.
Partner: It's not really a nice subject. But it's not my religion
Partner: I am happy if people like tits and ass. It's natural
FBI Agent: It is.
Partner: and human
FBI Agent: But that's what happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
FBI Agent: They suddenly perceived a new reality.
Partner: Sorry, but they didn't exists either.
FBI Agent: It sounds convincing to me.
FBI Agent: There is evidence.
FBI Agent: Have you read AiG's Research journal?
Partner: where?
FBI Agent: I can show you one.
FBI Agent: But you'll need some scientific background in biology and other ones.
Partner: i have that
FBI Agent: Ok.
FBI Agent: I can find you it on my own or I can give you the link for the Journal if you wish.
FBI Agent: Or both :)
FBI Agent: You've heard of AiG correct?
Partner: I'm not sure where you are going with this?
FBI Agent: Well. If you peruse of any of the material therein I am sure that you may find some plausibility in Christianity, more than you do now with your "made up" mentality.
FBI Agent: That's where I'm going.
Partner: Especially since everyone was apparently killed in the flood
FBI Agent: Well, yes.
Partner: How did all the marsupials head back to Australia?
FBI Agent: Unfortunately I cannot answer that question.
FBI Agent: I don't even know what marsupials are :D
Partner: Kangaroos, wallabies, etc.
Partner: Australia is the only plce they exist. How did they all get there after the flood
FBI Agent: Oh.
Partner: And nowhere else?
FBI Agent: I see your point.
FBI Agent: A superficial dillema.
FBI Agent: That's all.
Partner: From the arabian peninsula all the across the globe
FBI Agent: Well, are you implying there is no possible way?
FBI Agent: None, period.
FBI Agent: ?
Partner: not implying. Asking the question.
Partner: Kangaroos have never been found anywhere else. If they travelled back to AUstralia, some would surely be found on the way?
FBI Agent: What do you mean, like fossilized evidence?
Partner: Or did none die when trvelling there
Partner: fossils, live specimen, old bones, anything
FBI Agent: Right, I don't know.
Partner: Just making a point about Biblical accuracy
FBI Agent: Well, I don't think that lack of evidence means evidence of what you say.
FBI Agent: I now you were asking.
Partner: OK
FBI Agent: But lack of evidence of evidence is not evidence that it isn't accurate in that area.
FBI Agent: Oops.
FBI Agent: lack of evidence is not...*
Partner: It's not just lack of evidence, it's illogical to say the least
FBI Agent: Um, about that.
Partner: And I know God moves in mysteious ways, but is that really an anwser?
FBI Agent: If we are the prodect of random chance, which explanation I am assuming you subscribe to, why is there logical and why can we rationalize?
FBI Agent: There are clearly laws of Logic.
FBI Agent: You agree?
FBI Agent: Two questions there.
FBI Agent: Product*
Partner: The "laws" of logical are of human invention. Socrates started this train of thought. Remember Socrates taught Plato, Plato taught Aristotle and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great
Partner: the development of Logic has a clear lineage
FBI Agent: But there are laws of Logic. I can't say something totally illogical and be right, can I?
FBI Agent: We used them but didn't know it.
FBI Agent: So then we knew.
FBI Agent: That's how I see it.
Partner: That's where the Bible starts flling down. When we correctly apply Reason and Logic
FBI Agent: But a lack of cause of for this really raises some questions.
Partner: Our understanding of the world did not come from anything "in" the bible. It came when we started using reason and logic
FBI Agent: How can randomness account for it?
FBI Agent: No, our understanding of the world constantly changes.
Partner: Randomness is not an explanation on it's own.
FBI Agent: New discoveries.
FBI Agent: What do you mean?
Partner: Evolution is not random chance
FBI Agent: Natural selection selects. That's all.
FBI Agent: Evolution's other mechanism is mutation.
FBI Agent: That is random.
Partner: No.
FBI Agent: That can't account for laws of Logic.
Partner: Logic can be seen as the evolution of thought
FBI Agent: Hmm.
Partner: Any thoughts that do not fit the environment they exist in become obsolite
Partner: obsolete
Partner: sorry
FBI Agent: No need to apologize for that.
FBI Agent: But I see what you're saying.
FBI Agent: Still can't quite get my fingers on it but I do see some kind of problem with this.
FBI Agent: Ok, how about information.
FBI Agent: The DNA.
FBI Agent: Can you suggest an explanation for the origins of the information.
FBI Agent: Information makes us.
FBI Agent: Who we are.
Partner: Read On the Origin of SPecies, then The sefish Gene
FBI Agent: The language.
FBI Agent: Well.
FBI Agent: i wouldn't want too.
FBI Agent: I've read some of Darwin's letters.
FBI Agent: He denied his theory in one.
Partner: Then you must condemn yourself to live in ingorance
FBI Agent: It's a hard book to assimilate.
Partner: The letters are not the books
FBI Agent: I know.
FBI Agent: But the letter Darwin sent said he did not really believe as any of his theories as true.
FBI Agent: How can I read something when the author himself admits the nature of them?
Partner: Darwin wrote over 150 years ago. We have accumulated much knowledge since then
FBI Agent: They are just theories he was busy formulating after reading Lyells book.
FBI Agent: Nothing more.
FBI Agent: I don't think I can take it seriously.
Partner: How can you say this if you haven't read the book`?
FBI Agent: If the originator himself wasn't taking it seriously.
FBI Agent: I say it based upon what Darwin said.
Partner: Not fully understanding something does not make the whole wrong
FBI Agent: Who else knew it better?
FBI Agent: It did contribute to our scientific knowledge, no doubt about that.
Partner: Does your belief in the Bible, prevent you from reading
FBI Agent: But what was contributed has since been further developed and changed.
FBI Agent: No, of course not.
FBI Agent: Darwin's oppositin and lack of faith in Christianity, and the aforementioned letter do.
FBI Agent: And the fact that it is hard to read.
FBI Agent: The language isn't modern.
Partner: Our knowledge since is based on the essentially simple concept he proposed
FBI Agent: Archaic
FBI Agent: Not everywhere.
Partner: What he didn't know we have subsequently improved upon
FBI Agent: What I mean by that is that any of Darwin's proposed principals having the status of 'fact' is not something that is unanimously agreed upon among scientists, both atheistic and theistic.
FBI Agent: There are some secular scientits who go as far as saying it's a complete hoax.
FBI Agent: They laugh at it.
FBI Agent: It's a joke.
FBI Agent: To them.
Partner: He may not have understood the exact mechanisms, but that isn't the same as the theory of evolution being wrong
FBI Agent: And they are hardcore scientists.
Partner: Name one?
FBI Agent: John A. Davison.
Partner: John Dawson, what is his field of expertise?
FBI Agent: Not Dawson.
FBI Agent: Check his vitaeu.
Partner: Davison
FBI Agent: On his .edu page.
FBI Agent: I think it's biology.
Partner: What is his subject
FBI Agent: And the study of structure.
Partner: If he's a Biologist, then he's a very strange one
FBI Agent: Of living species.
FBI Agent: No lol.
Partner: I just typed John A Davison into wicki. not an entry found
FBI Agent: So what?
FBI Agent: I can make one right now.
FBI Agent: It's easy.
FBI Agent: :)
FBI Agent: Have you read, Slaughter of the Dissidents?
Partner: He's an ANtidarwinist
Partner: I Googled him
FBI Agent: That's right.
FBI Agent: He is.
FBI Agent: The same way I am anti atheistic.
FBI Agent: But I am open to challenges and open to having my conviction changed.
Partner: Would not that colour his starting point though
Partner: We were talking evolution, not theisism
FBI Agent: Have you read the above book?
FBI Agent: I'm just using an analogy.
Partner: Because someone is a dissident, does not give automatic validity
FBI Agent: Well, if you read it you'll be quite enlightened.
FBI Agent: Many scientists are denied tenure and being relocated to different positions.
FBI Agent: Simply because they don't toe the line with what other unlikeminded scientists are saying.
Partner: Opinion is always allowed. But if you start with the answer you want, it's relatively easy to find facts to fit
FBI Agent: Yep.
FBI Agent: Affirming the consequent.
FBI Agent: :)
FBI Agent: Logic.
Partner: As with you and Darwin, I shall not bother to waste my time with his book. Having read much on Religion, Biological evolution etc. I cannot choose to go backwards
FBI Agent: I understand.
Partner: I must go now. I hope you find comfort in your view of the world and live a good and happy life
FBI Agent: I have noted some things you said about the thoughts and environment.
FBI Agent: Thanks.
FBI Agent: You too.
FBI Agent: Wait.
FBI Agent: Do not leave yet.
Partner: I just urge you to think about some subjects that you may find uncomfortable, if it helps strngthen your world view
FBI Agent: Never mind. The history shows everything we have said.
FBI Agent: I am actually quite open to atheism.
FBI Agent: I am willing to become an atheist and devote my life to defending atheism if it is true.
Partner: Atheism is just the idea that there are no gods
FBI Agent: Through science and whatnot.
FBI Agent: This can go into a whole nother discussion lol.
FBI Agent: I disagree.
FBI Agent: But I agree with the definition.
FBI Agent: It's not "just" the idea that there are no gods.
FBI Agent: Atheism is, to my knowledge a whole new philosophy and an interpretation of evidence.
Partner: When we free ourselves from superstition, we free ourselves to be the best Human we can be
FBI Agent: Wait.
FBI Agent: Have you read any attestants’ testimonies of heaven?
Partner: no
FBI Agent: I know one personally.
FBI Agent: Well.
Partner: what is it?
FBI Agent: Somewhat.
FBI Agent: Well.
FBI Agent: There's heaven.
FBI Agent: God sees us.
FBI Agent: Through the roofs.
Partner: Believing in life after death, robs us of living fully in the only life we can know
FBI Agent: The heaven has inexplicable creations.
Partner: Life after death is an oxymoron
FBI Agent: Lol.
FBI Agent: Well, that's why I say "passed away."
FBI Agent: I don't say "R.I.P."
FBI Agent: Anyway
FBI Agent: Just a quick remark
FBI Agent: Atheism can be a religion.
FBI Agent: There are book,s radio shows, etc.
FBI Agent: They all promote atheistic thought and tell you to deny religion.
FBI Agent: That's religion.
Partner: Athesim is NOT a religion. There are no rules, not tenets, not compulsions.
FBI Agent: Can be.
FBI Agent: People join conferences where they oppose religion and think of ploys that will work towards destroying religion.
FBI Agent: That's religion.
FBI Agent: Not atheism by definition.
FBI Agent: But it can be.
Partner: Buddhism is a religion, but it is also essentially Atheist
FBI Agent: I don't know anything about Buddhism.
FBI Agent: I know Taioism and the yin yang.
FBI Agent: I also like Zen.
FBI Agent: I practice it.
FBI Agent: It helps to concentrate.
Partner: Religion when it causes harm to others, should be opposed
FBI Agent: See.
FBI Agent: --.--
FBI Agent: Ugh.
FBI Agent: Too much Dawkins lol?
Partner: Taoism in it's original form was most definitely Atheistic
FBI Agent: Agnostic.
FBI Agent: I think.
FBI Agent: By they way, what does Dawkin's refusal to debate William Lane Crag tell you?
FBI Agent: He was also slandering him on his website.
FBI Agent: That is not someone I want to believe.
Partner: No. the Tao is All things. There is no need for a god
FBI Agent: If this beliefs result in such childish behavior. No thanks.
FBI Agent: I'll give it a pass.
Partner: WLC is a Christian Apologist. He has nothing valid to say
FBI Agent: Lol.
FBI Agent: Pretty much summarizes what Dawkins said.
Partner: His basic argument is "I believe, therefore...."
FBI Agent: But thanks for the information about Taoism.
FBI Agent: I know some of Taoism*
FBI Agent: Lol.
FBI Agent: His basic argument is definitely not that.
FBI Agent: I'm not going to defend WLC's arguments.
Partner: Try to read to understand, you are part of the Tao, therefore you are part of the universe around you. No need to thank
FBI Agent: But obviously, if they are as weak as you say, then why is Dawkins being a coward?
FBI Agent: Well, I don't believe in Taoism.
FBI Agent: I do like the methods such as Zen.
Partner: It's a waste of time. WLC makes a living at what he does, but none of his arguents are new or revealling in any useful way.
FBI Agent: So does Dawkins lol!
FBI Agent: His books are so popular!
Partner: Buddhism and Taoism give much to personal enlightenment
Partner: They are both ways of understanding who we, as indiviuals are. This does not involve the neccesity for a God
FBI Agent: Dawkins is still an epitome of a religious atheistic zealot.
Partner: Try reading Chrisopher Hitchens, God is not great. He knows his subject far better than Dawkins
FBI Agent: I will.
FBI Agent: I've had mixed opinions about that book though.
FBI Agent: From both atheists and theists.
FBI Agent: Atheists saying it embarrasses them.
FBI Agent: And some extolling it.
FBI Agent: I don't think any theist has given that book even a three star rating based on its merits.
FBI Agent: On AmAZON.
Partner: The reason people are more outspoken about Religion and by extension, their reject of religious texts, is that the Religious esp. Christians and Muslims, seem to think that their religious texts give them the right to blow up the world. This is dangerous
FBI Agent: Most were laughing at it.
FBI Agent: I mean, the title of the book itself, "How religion poisons everything," shows that it's going to generalize religion.
Partner: Both preach the end of the world, with their own Messiahs coming to save them and condemn everybody else. This is not healthy
FBI Agent: What?
FBI Agent: No Christian wants to blow up the world. Was this metaphorical?
FBI Agent: Right.
Partner: The Madness that is the Book of Revelations?
FBI Agent: But two saying it doesn't mean borth are wrong.
FBI Agent: I think you can identify the logical fallasy in that.
FBI Agent: Madness?
FBI Agent: Well, I understand.
Partner: Have you really read it?
FBI Agent: The writer was high.
FBI Agent: I heard.
FBI Agent: Lol.
FBI Agent: I'm not going to comment on that.
FBI Agent: I know it's a very strange book.
FBI Agent: I know.
Partner: And because he smoked one too many spliffs, the end of the world has been nigh for 2000 years
FBI Agent: I have not read it myself.
FBI Agent: But seriously
FBI Agent: If this is an allusion to that whatshisname
FBI Agent: Guy preaching the End of the world, or did, on may 21.
FBI Agent: Then I think it's Sep 21
FBI Agent: Ugh
Partner: You should read it. It is MAD
FBI Agent: I will try lol.
FBI Agent: Then please ignore.
FBI Agent: He clearly he hasn't read his Bible.
FBI Agent: It says no man, even the Son, knows the date.
Partner: And remember, Both Muslims and Christians think Jesus is coming back to reward the faithful and condenm the rest
FBI Agent: Their theology is so feeble.
FBI Agent: And?
Partner: The world has to deal with the consequences
FBI Agent: How about the consequences of Eugenics?
FBI Agent: How about Hitler's holocaust?
Partner: What has eugenics got to do with anything
FBI Agent: It was scientifically driven.
Partner: Hitler was a Catholic
FBI Agent: Haber And Bosch
FBI Agent: The guys who found ou tthe synthesis of ammonia.
FBI Agent: Their discovery ended up killing many people.
FBI Agent: These discoveries had no religious influence.
Partner: what has this to do with anything?
FBI Agent: Yet their result was disasterous.
FBI Agent: With religion's consequences being bad.
Partner: And some might argue that if it wasn't for Nazi germany, modern day Isreal would not exist
FBI Agent: It pales in comparison to what nonreligion's consequences are.
FBI Agent: Your point being?
Partner: Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Catholic. Stalin train in a seminary
Partner: What they did has nothing to do with atheism
FBI Agent: Right, but read this book: 6 Million and Counting.
Partner: As I said, Athesim does not have a unified theory of how the world should work.
FBI Agent: It has biases.
Partner: But religion is always a useful tool for getting good people to do bad things
FBI Agent: Like what?
FBI Agent: Name one bad thing Christian does.
Partner: Like the Killing of the Jews, because the catholic church taught that the Jews killed christ
FBI Agent: Omg.
FBI Agent: That's not Christian!
FBI Agent: Christian by definition condemns such distortions of thought.
FBI Agent: Well by logical necessity.
FBI Agent: Christianity*
Partner: The Catholics are the largest of the Christian denominations
FBI Agent: The Catholics are anti Sola Scriptura.
FBI Agent: Heard of Martin Luther?
Partner: Christianity as we know it would not exist, but for catholism
FBI Agent: And his Five Solas
FBI Agent: Maybe true.
FBI Agent: :)
Partner: The protestant reformation was a reaction to the catholic church
FBI Agent: But still, what Catholics did was not Christian.
FBI Agent: Do you deny this?
FBI Agent: So you still need to answer my question.
FBI Agent: If you don't deny it.
Partner: People were burnt at the stake for reading the bible in the own language. Instead of in Latin
FBI Agent: Really?
FBI Agent: I didn't know.
Partner: And for 1200 years, catholiics were christianity
FBI Agent: Ok.
Partner: All others were heretics
FBI Agent: Maybe the start was a little bloody and awkward.
FBI Agent: But the same with scientism.
Partner: But this is GOD's WORD
FBI Agent: It has to make headway
FBI Agent: With powerful opposition.
FBI Agent: Like that o Stephen Jay Gould's and many other scientists.
FBI Agent: of*
Partner: i thought it was about truth and morality
FBI Agent: Well.
Partner: Did God get all that stuff wrong?
FBI Agent: You haven't read the Old Testament then.
Partner: The Old Testament is even worse!
Partner: And yes I have
FBI Agent: God doesn't tolerate incredulity and idolatry by his creation.
FBI Agent: Ok, I see you are quite misinformed.
Partner: Do you have a cross
FBI Agent: Read Paul Copans new book, Is God a Moral Monster.
FBI Agent: What do you mean?
FBI Agent: Do I wear that cross?
FBI Agent: No way.
FBI Agent: People create a fetish out of that thing.
Partner: I cannot. If I do not belive in God, questions of God's morallity are pointless
FBI Agent: See.
FBI Agent: That's why I disagreed with your "just this..." definition on atheism.
FBI Agent: It's not just.....
FBI Agent: blah blah blah
FBI Agent: It's more often than not a religion.
Partner: If there is no God, what is the point reading books about God's attributes?
FBI Agent: --.--
FBI Agent: I can challenge that with this: That's your theology.
FBI Agent: I mean, the theology you had that led you disbelieve in God.
FBI Agent: :D
Partner: I have no desired to read books about Paddington Bears difficult upbringing in Peru. The bear is fictitious
FBI Agent: Who said it wasn't?
FBI Agent: Or even it's probability of existing?
FBI Agent: Have you bothered to consider that?
FBI Agent: The probability of God existing is...BIG!
FBI Agent: Testimonies as ones I said exist of heaven don't constitute proof or evidence
Partner: The eidence for God's existence is the Bible. I do not believe the Bible to be true
FBI Agent: You forgot what I said.
FBI Agent: But I'm sure I forgot what you said.
FBI Agent: But what you forgot was this: Outside sources.
Partner: We are now going around in circles. Sorry
FBI Agent: I said since the beginning.
FBI Agent: No.
FBI Agent: I don't think so
Partner: Outside sources are used to justify what the bible says. That isn't proof of anything
FBI Agent: ?
FBI Agent: I don't understand.
FBI Agent: Justify?
Partner: I have a picture of Buddha in my house
FBI Agent: Ok
Partner: I am not a Buddhist but there is much he said that has value
FBI Agent: I agree.
FBI Agent: Though I know little about it.
Partner: I have a carving of the Goddess Saraswati
Partner: From Bali
FBI Agent: Is it an antique or what, where are you going with this?
Partner: She is the Hindu goddess of Music, the Arts, and Knowledge
FBI Agent: Dizzy.
FBI Agent: Lol.
Partner: I do not believe IN either of these, but as ideas they to me have some value
FBI Agent: Ok, same here with regard to Zen practice of obtaining concentration.
FBI Agent: It has practical value.
Partner: And there is no sense of condemnation if I choose to ignore the supernatural
FBI Agent: Ok.
FBI Agent: And?
Partner: Remember Zen is a form of Buddhism
Partner: We can take positives from mcuh that has gone before.
FBI Agent: Positives?
Partner: Because these things were once believed, and still are by many people, does not make them any more TRUE
Partner: But as an aide to understanding ourselves, they do have merit
FBI Agent: But the book on Buddha was written hudreds of years after his presence, am I right?
FBI Agent: This is not the case with the Bible.
Partner: No. Buddism is a coniutal process of enlightenment.
FBI Agent: The Quran cobbled up stories from the Old Testament.
FBI Agent: I mean ABOUT buddha
FBI Agent: The guy who has these ideas and originated them, right?
Partner: Budha says, not even to believe what he says if it makes no sense to your reason
FBI Agent: Who had*
FBI Agent: Really?
Partner: Yes
Partner: He claimed enlightenment
Partner: But he did not say all must follow his path
FBI Agent: The direct opposite of what the Quaran prescribes. Lol!
Partner: The Quran is closer to the Old Testament, than many give it credit for
Partner: Both say there is only one God
FBI Agent: Why do you say so?
FBI Agent: The sentence preceding the last one.
Partner: Jesus is treated as a Prophet in Islam, but not a God
Partner: The Jews do not even recognize him as a Prophet
FBI Agent: Yet that's exactly what others considered of Him, and he asked his disciples of what they thought of him. They answered Son of God. And I think Jesus' reply according to the NT was a confirming one.
Partner: Which was?
FBI Agent: I mean, the Gospels and other letters in the NT very flagrantly reveal a Jesus who is not a prophet.
FBI Agent: Hence it is why the Muslims claim it was revised.
FBI Agent: And yadayada.
FBI Agent: Historical evidence suggest otherwise.
FBI Agent: There many scholars in the field I'm sure you are aware of them.
FBI Agent: There are*
Partner: If evidence is based on the Pauline letters, then that is not evidence
FBI Agent: Not just those.
FBI Agent: Wait
Partner: I must go. I have the rest of my life to get on with. But thanks to the discourse. It's been interesting
FBI Agent: Brb
FBI Agent: Or you departing?
Partner: As I said at the beginning, Jesus was a creation of the Roman empire.
FBI Agent: Lol
FBI Agent: I think this is like over 20 pages long
Partner: Have a good life and strive to be happy
FBI Agent: Yep you two
FBI Agent: adieus
FBI Agent: please read some of aig as i will read chris. hitches book
FBI Agent: :)
Partner: Thats froma poem called Desiderata
Thursday, February 19, 2015
Paul Vjecsner Comment
Sanford Aranoff says:
"The philosophical assumptions which underlie scientific inquiry..." Please! We must know what the words mean! What does God mean? Well to define something we have to show it relationship with other things. Since God existed prior to everything else, we cannot use anything to define God. Conclusion: God is a meaningless word.
What is science? A scientific theory is a mathematical framework (a collection of meaningful arbitrary consistent statements) combined with partial empirical verification. The author does not know what science is.
See Rational Thinking, Government Policies, Science, and Living. See the chapter on God.
Paul Vjecsner says:
As you may notice, Dr. Aranoff, I am the author of the book reviewed, and I want to challenge your what you consistently call rational thinking.
First, there is no connection made of your "know what the words mean! What does God mean?" with the reviewer's "philosophical assumptions which underlie scientific inquiry".
Second, your inference from "to define something we have to show it[sic] relationship with other things" to God as "a meaningless word" is quite a non-sequitur. One can define God by "other things" even if he "existed prior to everything else". In fact the prior existence can be made a defining attribute if one so wishes. A customary definition as omnipotent and omniscient is entirely possible.
Third, "what science is" is again a matter of definition, and they vary. And yours is hardly acceptable. That a "scientific theory is a mathematical framework" flies in the face of the widest understanding of science as concerning the natural world, knowledge of which is aided by applicable mathematics. Freud or Darwin, if considered scientists, did not build on mathematics.
In summary, you are in need of better understanding of definition, let alone logic.
"The philosophical assumptions which underlie scientific inquiry..." Please! We must know what the words mean! What does God mean? Well to define something we have to show it relationship with other things. Since God existed prior to everything else, we cannot use anything to define God. Conclusion: God is a meaningless word.
What is science? A scientific theory is a mathematical framework (a collection of meaningful arbitrary consistent statements) combined with partial empirical verification. The author does not know what science is.
See Rational Thinking, Government Policies, Science, and Living. See the chapter on God.
Paul Vjecsner says:
As you may notice, Dr. Aranoff, I am the author of the book reviewed, and I want to challenge your what you consistently call rational thinking.
First, there is no connection made of your "know what the words mean! What does God mean?" with the reviewer's "philosophical assumptions which underlie scientific inquiry".
Second, your inference from "to define something we have to show it[sic] relationship with other things" to God as "a meaningless word" is quite a non-sequitur. One can define God by "other things" even if he "existed prior to everything else". In fact the prior existence can be made a defining attribute if one so wishes. A customary definition as omnipotent and omniscient is entirely possible.
Third, "what science is" is again a matter of definition, and they vary. And yours is hardly acceptable. That a "scientific theory is a mathematical framework" flies in the face of the widest understanding of science as concerning the natural world, knowledge of which is aided by applicable mathematics. Freud or Darwin, if considered scientists, did not build on mathematics.
In summary, you are in need of better understanding of definition, let alone logic.
My Witty Responses
Actually fubaraoul, no one is running around claiming their imaginary friends are real. Please demonstrate to me where such claims were present and how it relates to what I have admonished that you do.
Secondly, the idiom "Get a grip" that I used is defined as the following: 1) control oneself, 2) cool their temper.
Telling me to "go fuck myself" and dubbing me a "motherfucker" will conduce to an elimination of your rights to access the correct YouTube account; in addition, such is not indicative of control or cool temper, which you alleged you had, despite ensuingly calling me "dipshit."
You are a walking paradox.
Diversion - the act of diverting or turning aside, as from a course or purpose.
The accurate identification of the purpose of the specified comment from you is diversion and comments of your ilk spring from doofiness; you can disagree with me but not with the definitions.
Doofiness - I refer you to the number four definition in this link: urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doofiness
Pay particular attention to the following excerpt from the meaning of "doofy" in the above link: "Some suffer from prolonged or lifetime doofiness, such as individuals with Asperger's syndrome."
Hi fubaraoul. You speak of "matter of fact" yet you appear to be nescient of the nature of truth, that it is gentle, vulnerable, beautiful, radiant, revealing, and oh yes, cordial. Your comportment towards others has been the antipodal of that which is a "matter of fact" and your insults directed at others have been indicative of a cuss that is an enemy of truth.
There is no fact in the reprehensibility of sincere responses as your misconception of the sincerity is what is reprehensible.
Yes, I did use the term "candor" in my statement to you, why do you ask the obvious, isn't it obvious? Second, about your remonstration that in order for one to use that word in the relation of the context as I did they would have to be ignorant of what the Bible says, well, hmm; either you don't know what candor means or you are tacitly conceding that you indeed cannot permit any candor, thus answering, though with circumlocution, my question, thanks.
Additionally, we are not talking about a belief, we are talking about the nature of the veracity of a collection of books sewn together to form one book, the Bible.
It is a statement that is entirely empty, but I didn't expect you to comprehend it anyway so, let me explain specially for you. A statement that is empty contains no substance that entails evidence for the assumed reality of something, in this case, the contents of the aggregate total of books that comprise the Bible.
Also, what or who defines reality?
I'd love to hear your response to something I have said and I am thankful that you did not resort to anything even approximating a personal attack.
And, that is also why some dictionaries define the term "atheism" as "the doctrine that there is no God."
God definition: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
Perhaps it would be wise to classify god in lowercase and god in uppercase in different categories.
You have starkly failed to substantiate your claim. In addition you were blind to your own claim, it seems, because you are trying to prove something you actually never said. I don't have time toying around with you lightweight intellectuals with [accompanying] nasty demeanors and extremely deficit ken of practically anything you talk about.
Adieus delusional atheists, and remember that is an opinion I am entitled to in the same way you are.
Ok, well play nice I'm out. Adeus. Btw, I'm not an atheist, I lied, atheism is in my opinion delusional, you can disagree, but I am entitled to my opinion.
And now you are claiming I am committing deception, is that what I am to understand from your last sentence?
Secondly, the idiom "Get a grip" that I used is defined as the following: 1) control oneself, 2) cool their temper.
Telling me to "go fuck myself" and dubbing me a "motherfucker" will conduce to an elimination of your rights to access the correct YouTube account; in addition, such is not indicative of control or cool temper, which you alleged you had, despite ensuingly calling me "dipshit."
You are a walking paradox.
Diversion - the act of diverting or turning aside, as from a course or purpose.
The accurate identification of the purpose of the specified comment from you is diversion and comments of your ilk spring from doofiness; you can disagree with me but not with the definitions.
Doofiness - I refer you to the number four definition in this link: urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doofiness
Pay particular attention to the following excerpt from the meaning of "doofy" in the above link: "Some suffer from prolonged or lifetime doofiness, such as individuals with Asperger's syndrome."
Hi fubaraoul. You speak of "matter of fact" yet you appear to be nescient of the nature of truth, that it is gentle, vulnerable, beautiful, radiant, revealing, and oh yes, cordial. Your comportment towards others has been the antipodal of that which is a "matter of fact" and your insults directed at others have been indicative of a cuss that is an enemy of truth.
There is no fact in the reprehensibility of sincere responses as your misconception of the sincerity is what is reprehensible.
Yes, I did use the term "candor" in my statement to you, why do you ask the obvious, isn't it obvious? Second, about your remonstration that in order for one to use that word in the relation of the context as I did they would have to be ignorant of what the Bible says, well, hmm; either you don't know what candor means or you are tacitly conceding that you indeed cannot permit any candor, thus answering, though with circumlocution, my question, thanks.
Additionally, we are not talking about a belief, we are talking about the nature of the veracity of a collection of books sewn together to form one book, the Bible.
It is a statement that is entirely empty, but I didn't expect you to comprehend it anyway so, let me explain specially for you. A statement that is empty contains no substance that entails evidence for the assumed reality of something, in this case, the contents of the aggregate total of books that comprise the Bible.
Also, what or who defines reality?
I'd love to hear your response to something I have said and I am thankful that you did not resort to anything even approximating a personal attack.
And, that is also why some dictionaries define the term "atheism" as "the doctrine that there is no God."
God definition: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
Perhaps it would be wise to classify god in lowercase and god in uppercase in different categories.
You have starkly failed to substantiate your claim. In addition you were blind to your own claim, it seems, because you are trying to prove something you actually never said. I don't have time toying around with you lightweight intellectuals with [accompanying] nasty demeanors and extremely deficit ken of practically anything you talk about.
Adieus delusional atheists, and remember that is an opinion I am entitled to in the same way you are.
Ok, well play nice I'm out. Adeus. Btw, I'm not an atheist, I lied, atheism is in my opinion delusional, you can disagree, but I am entitled to my opinion.
And now you are claiming I am committing deception, is that what I am to understand from your last sentence?
10 Plagues of Egypt
1. Water to Blood
7:19 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
2. Frogs
8:2 And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
8:3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneading troughs:
8:4 And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
3. Gnats or Lice
8:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
4. Flies
8:21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
5. Livestock Diseased
9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
6. Boils
9:8 And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.
9:9 And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
7. Thunder and Hail
9:18 Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.
8. Locusts
10:4 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, tomorrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:
10:5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field.
9. Darkness
10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
10:22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days
10. Death of the Firstborn
11:4 And Moses said: “thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
7:19 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
2. Frogs
8:2 And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
8:3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneading troughs:
8:4 And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
3. Gnats or Lice
8:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
4. Flies
8:21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
5. Livestock Diseased
9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
6. Boils
9:8 And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.
9:9 And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
7. Thunder and Hail
9:18 Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.
8. Locusts
10:4 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, tomorrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:
10:5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field.
9. Darkness
10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
10:22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days
10. Death of the Firstborn
11:4 And Moses said: “thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
Ten Commandments
King James Version, New International Version and New Living Translation
And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
And God spoke all these words: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Then God instructed the people as follows: “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt.
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
1. Do not worship any other gods besides me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
2. Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
3. Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
4. Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then he rested on the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
5. Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God will give you.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
6. You shall not murder.
6. Do not murder.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
8. You shall not steal.
8. Do not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
9. Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
10. Do not covet your neighbor’s house. Do not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns.”
And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
And God spoke all these words: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Then God instructed the people as follows: “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt.
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
1. Do not worship any other gods besides me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
2. Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey my commands, even for a thousand generations.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
3. Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
4. Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then he rested on the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
5. Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God will give you.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
6. You shall not murder.
6. Do not murder.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
8. You shall not steal.
8. Do not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
9. Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
10. Do not covet your neighbor’s house. Do not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns.”
Wednesday, February 18, 2015
Religion and Racism
By Jenny Donati
“Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.”
This is how Jesus of Nazareth — of “red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight” fame — is reported to have responded to a Greek woman who begged him to heal her daughter of a demonic possession (Mark 7:25-30)*. Here, and in many other stories, the Bible indicates that “the chosen people” are superior to, and should come before, “the dogs”. A new study shows that the same mindset persists in 21st-century America; increased religiosity is linked tightly with increased racism. Researchers believe this is because of the “us” vs. “them” mindset inherent in religion.
Published in the February issue of Personality and Social Psychology Review, the study takes the form of a meta-analysis, or a study of studies. The results of a number of studies are collected and re-analyzed.
This study, focusing on American Christians — the researchers are American and the dominant religion in the United States is Christianity — reviewed all studies on religion and race conducted from the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to the present. More than half were conducted after 1990.
The abstract, in part:
a strong religious in-group identity was associated with derogation of racial out-groups. Other races might be treated as out-groups because religion is practiced largely within race, because training in a religious in-group identity promotes general ethnocentrism, and because different others appear to be in competition for resources. In addition, religious racism is tied to basic life values of social conformity and respect for tradition . . . The authors failed to find that racial tolerance arises from humanitarian values, consistent with the idea that religious humanitarianism is largely expressed to in-group members. Only religious agnostics were racially tolerant.
Study co-author Wendy Wood, Provost Professor of Psychology and Business at the University of Southern California, expanded upon the abstract:
Religious groups distinguish between believers and non-believers and moral people and immoral ones. So perhaps it’s no surprise that the strongly religious people in our research, who were mostly white Christians, discriminated against others who were different from them — blacks and minorities.
All religions offer a moral group identity, and so across world religions — including Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, Judaism and Christianity — the religious ingroup is valued over outgroups.
One would hope that, as we move toward a more multicultural society, and as racism is less socially acceptable, that open bigotry would be in decline. Overall, it is; the prejudices remain, but are kept more close to the vest, particularly among certain groups:
The effect stays significant even in recent years. For people who are religious for conservative reasons [respect for tradition, social conventionalism], they have become less racist in recent years as racism has become less socially acceptable. But even they are still significantly racist, just that the effect has reduced in magnitude.
Further, Wood said, the more devout the religionist, the more extreme the racism.
The opposite is also true; Wood and her co-authors found that the less religious the person, the less racial prejudice is manifested.
One possible surprise? We are all familiar with the stereotype of the fundamentalist Christian ranting against all sorts of people, and assume that she is more likely to harbor racist attitudes than the friendly, rational-seeming Episcopalian next door. Not so.
While fundamentalists were more outspoken with their bigotries, Wood, et al found that mainstream Christians held the same prejudices, while paying lip service to racial tolerance.
This study is particularly timely during the rise of the Tea Party movement. While it started out as a broad-based, grassroots movement of people enraged by bailouts (starting, if you recall, with anger at Bush’s bailout), Judson Phillips’ for-profit Tea Party Nation has become a nearly all-white Christian Nation movement regularly accused of racism.
Could this be why this study has been ignored by all the mainstream media? I can certainly understand Fox News giving it a pass for this reason.
Maybe it’s been passed over by the other news outlets for the simple reason that it’s not something people want to hear. People don’t want to be told that being religious means they are most likely bigots . . . even as they sing in their self-segregated churches, “Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight.“
*As I have been accused of misquoting the Bible, allow me to reproduce the story in question here.
Mark 7:25-30 (KJV)
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
Article Discussion:
Baconsbud:
I think that one of the reasons this study wouldn't get much media attention is those within the media are afraid of racial issues being given time on TV. They don't mind when it seems like the race card is being played but when it shows that most that seem to have gotten past the racial issue are actually still just as bigoted, would cause problems with their income. What would happen if you were to tell many of those that are helping you to get though life, they are racist? I figure they would get all huffy and stop helping you. They will admit to themselves you are right but they won't admit it in public.
Aaronbieber:
That is, if anything, one of the most compelling reasons to believe that "news" on television is scarcely news at all. It's "current events theater."
Bizchaplain:
Jenny apparently isn't the least bit ashamed of herself as she misquotes Scripture. Perhaps she merely demonstrates gross ignorance of the Scripture and its context.
Jenny:
How exactly is this a misquote?
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
As regards the rest of your comments . . . I assume you believe that your all-powerful god is incapable of controlling the text of his own book. Sure, Gore Vidal can do it, but your god can’t demand a revision.
Bizchaplain:
In the first place, the woman was NOT a Greek. She was a Canaanite, or a Syrophoenician. These were the ones who worshiped Baal, and they had initiated the racial contempt toward Jews. The Canaanites called Jews "dogs" and the Jews merely returned the favor.
In the second place, the standard Greek word (Mark was written in Greek) was "kuon" which was used in reference to the dogs of the street that ate Jezebel's body. Mark didn't use that word, but he used the affectionate term "kunarion" which referred more to household pets. Not that it was much better, but it had a softer term than the cultural epithets of the other.
Third, while the cultures were different, there was no racial component to these epithets and there was none in Jesus' use of the term with the woman. Rather, Jesus was giving the woman the opportunity to demonstrate a faith lacking among his own people.
As long as we have enemies of the Christian faith and of Christians in general, we will meet with those who take cheap shots at our Scriptures and at the way we appropriate these Scriptures in our lives. One of those cheap shots is the ready-fire-aim methodology of pulling out the "race card." It's sad that those who know little about our Scriptures are willing to throw snippets at us when they snipe at us, but it's even more of a sad thing when we Christians don't know enough of our Scriptures to refute the cheap attacks.
A message to Jenny is that we will apply our own Scriptures to judge ourselves, but thanks for your offer to help.
Fugue:
Unless you're quoting the Gospel of Mark in the original Hebrew (possibly Greek), from a first edition known to have been written by Mark himself, any quote is as likely to be a misquote as not.
Baconsbud:
Where are you getting the information that someone named Mark actually wrote the Gospel Mark? You might want to check to see what theologists actually say about the Gospels.
JennyD:
. . . how does any of your extended comment relate to the subject matter of the article, anyway? You say nothing about the research demonstrating more religiosity = more racism.
How does your comment address the fact that Jesus used a derogatory term to refer to people outside of his "in-group", and said that "the children" should come first, before "dogs", whether they are "good" dogs or "bad" dogs being irrelevant?
Zeus:
Oh,hush chap. your religion is based on fear you would sit here and make these remarks to defend slavery, degrading women, and bigotry if you were given those scriptures. Look at all the religiously motivated violence “for gods” when will you finally come to terms when a person kills for scripture it is religiously motivated period. Same with the hate you preach to others who don’t accept your fairy tales, fear is all you know disguised as love. Love me or else. That is not a choice. That is an abusive boyfriend you keep making excuses for, which is quiet pitiful.
Cristian:
Charles, you took the introductory paragraph, found some theological fault with it, and clung to it, which I suspect you hope will spare you the need to address the actual data, the results of the study, the real point of the article. Is this an attempt at diversion, or a simple omission? To a lot of people, theological arguments are as relevant as astrological arguments, or arguments about alchemy: incredibly elaborate, involved and detailed speculation with no real bearing in the real world, serving only to deflect attention from shit that actually matters.
Xalem:
Reading the comments by Zeus above, one can see that a fervent atheist, like a fervent believer, can be very prejudicial and hateful. It is not the belief system that causes the hate, it is that people who are naturally disposed to hatred grab onto beliefs to justify the hatred. Even fervent atheists grab onto beliefs (beliefs about how destructive religion is) and treat the target of their anger as infantile. The Christian ethic "love your neighbor, love your enemy" should prevent racism, but it doesn't, because hatred is too powerful for a belief system to stop it. Any belief system, even democracy, even humanism, even modernity, even secularism, none of these prevented Abu Graib.
Baconsbud:
How do you get hate from what Zeus said. I probably would have said it a little differently but it would have come out as the same. Does that mean because I believe christianity is the main problem within the USA, I hate all christians? If you believe it does mean that then you must be using a different definition of what hate means.
ImaLionRarRarRar:
Xalem, the destructive nature of religion is not a belief, but a fact proven over and over throughout history. If people who are naturally disposed to hatred latch on to religion for justification, then why should I, or any person who has the capacity for love over hate, want to associate themselves with it? I was raised as a Christian, and attended a fundamentalist Christian school for 12 years, and I can say that my personal experiences have left me with nothing but bitterness for the religion. The blatant bigotry and hypocrisy displayed by 90% of the people around me was disgusting to be quite honest. I am not an atheist, but I am certainly no Christian. I guess if you had to label me it would be agnostic.
This is not an argument against God, but rather against any organized religion that gives people the entitlement for hate, discrimination, bigotry, hypocrisy, irrationality, and the murder of millions and millions of people. I'm not saying that secular lifestyles do not have the capacity to cause harm, but it certainly does not even come close to the horrors committed in the name of religion.
I think atheists have a right to treat religious people childishly, but only when their arguments are so similarly irrational, close minded and temper-tantrum prone as that of a child's. If anything the anger comes from the frustrations of trying to have a mature, logic based discussion with people so unwilling to concede, let alone listen to obvious rationality.
We should love our neighbors and enemies because it is the right thing to do, not because Jesus said so.
IamB:
"Only religious agnostics were racially tolerant." I appreciated this because it addresses one of the foundational evils of religion… a claim to certainty. In this case, we're talking about a claim to certainty about things that have no basis in a scientific reality. Religion has taught people to accept lying to themselves as a viable remedy for the uncertainty of life and the pain of being powerless victims of a random, physical universe that is utterly incapable of being concerned about an individual. The lie is that they are special and that they are allowed to have special, intimate knowledge about things that no rational person will dare claim to own.
But (and here's the thing), their bible practically commands them to be certain and condemns honest questioning. The agnostic is at least questioning him or herself… at least accepting the possibility that he or she may not honestly claim certainty about who god is, what he wants or how he wants us to conduct our lives.
When you give yourself license to lie to yourself, you surrender your ability to detect your own biases.
So no surprise that they will not recognize themselves in this article.
Mike_Daniels:
A precondition for faith is NOT knowing.
If God is omniscient, and thus knows all, how can He have...
Mike_Daniels:
I appreciate that you love all people. That's wonderful! But God hates them; the Bible says so...
Forgiveness:
As for the billions of other people who you explain "picked the wrong stories to believe in,"...
Forgiveness:
No, I believe God created human life so He may love them. I believe they sinned against His will and...
Mike_Daniels:
You're absolutely right: If a god revealed its existence, there would be no need for humans to...
“Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.”
This is how Jesus of Nazareth — of “red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight” fame — is reported to have responded to a Greek woman who begged him to heal her daughter of a demonic possession (Mark 7:25-30)*. Here, and in many other stories, the Bible indicates that “the chosen people” are superior to, and should come before, “the dogs”. A new study shows that the same mindset persists in 21st-century America; increased religiosity is linked tightly with increased racism. Researchers believe this is because of the “us” vs. “them” mindset inherent in religion.
Published in the February issue of Personality and Social Psychology Review, the study takes the form of a meta-analysis, or a study of studies. The results of a number of studies are collected and re-analyzed.
This study, focusing on American Christians — the researchers are American and the dominant religion in the United States is Christianity — reviewed all studies on religion and race conducted from the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to the present. More than half were conducted after 1990.
The abstract, in part:
a strong religious in-group identity was associated with derogation of racial out-groups. Other races might be treated as out-groups because religion is practiced largely within race, because training in a religious in-group identity promotes general ethnocentrism, and because different others appear to be in competition for resources. In addition, religious racism is tied to basic life values of social conformity and respect for tradition . . . The authors failed to find that racial tolerance arises from humanitarian values, consistent with the idea that religious humanitarianism is largely expressed to in-group members. Only religious agnostics were racially tolerant.
Study co-author Wendy Wood, Provost Professor of Psychology and Business at the University of Southern California, expanded upon the abstract:
Religious groups distinguish between believers and non-believers and moral people and immoral ones. So perhaps it’s no surprise that the strongly religious people in our research, who were mostly white Christians, discriminated against others who were different from them — blacks and minorities.
All religions offer a moral group identity, and so across world religions — including Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, Judaism and Christianity — the religious ingroup is valued over outgroups.
One would hope that, as we move toward a more multicultural society, and as racism is less socially acceptable, that open bigotry would be in decline. Overall, it is; the prejudices remain, but are kept more close to the vest, particularly among certain groups:
The effect stays significant even in recent years. For people who are religious for conservative reasons [respect for tradition, social conventionalism], they have become less racist in recent years as racism has become less socially acceptable. But even they are still significantly racist, just that the effect has reduced in magnitude.
Further, Wood said, the more devout the religionist, the more extreme the racism.
The opposite is also true; Wood and her co-authors found that the less religious the person, the less racial prejudice is manifested.
One possible surprise? We are all familiar with the stereotype of the fundamentalist Christian ranting against all sorts of people, and assume that she is more likely to harbor racist attitudes than the friendly, rational-seeming Episcopalian next door. Not so.
While fundamentalists were more outspoken with their bigotries, Wood, et al found that mainstream Christians held the same prejudices, while paying lip service to racial tolerance.
This study is particularly timely during the rise of the Tea Party movement. While it started out as a broad-based, grassroots movement of people enraged by bailouts (starting, if you recall, with anger at Bush’s bailout), Judson Phillips’ for-profit Tea Party Nation has become a nearly all-white Christian Nation movement regularly accused of racism.
Could this be why this study has been ignored by all the mainstream media? I can certainly understand Fox News giving it a pass for this reason.
Maybe it’s been passed over by the other news outlets for the simple reason that it’s not something people want to hear. People don’t want to be told that being religious means they are most likely bigots . . . even as they sing in their self-segregated churches, “Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight.“
*As I have been accused of misquoting the Bible, allow me to reproduce the story in question here.
Mark 7:25-30 (KJV)
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
Article Discussion:
Baconsbud:
I think that one of the reasons this study wouldn't get much media attention is those within the media are afraid of racial issues being given time on TV. They don't mind when it seems like the race card is being played but when it shows that most that seem to have gotten past the racial issue are actually still just as bigoted, would cause problems with their income. What would happen if you were to tell many of those that are helping you to get though life, they are racist? I figure they would get all huffy and stop helping you. They will admit to themselves you are right but they won't admit it in public.
Aaronbieber:
That is, if anything, one of the most compelling reasons to believe that "news" on television is scarcely news at all. It's "current events theater."
Bizchaplain:
Jenny apparently isn't the least bit ashamed of herself as she misquotes Scripture. Perhaps she merely demonstrates gross ignorance of the Scripture and its context.
Jenny:
How exactly is this a misquote?
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
As regards the rest of your comments . . . I assume you believe that your all-powerful god is incapable of controlling the text of his own book. Sure, Gore Vidal can do it, but your god can’t demand a revision.
Bizchaplain:
In the first place, the woman was NOT a Greek. She was a Canaanite, or a Syrophoenician. These were the ones who worshiped Baal, and they had initiated the racial contempt toward Jews. The Canaanites called Jews "dogs" and the Jews merely returned the favor.
In the second place, the standard Greek word (Mark was written in Greek) was "kuon" which was used in reference to the dogs of the street that ate Jezebel's body. Mark didn't use that word, but he used the affectionate term "kunarion" which referred more to household pets. Not that it was much better, but it had a softer term than the cultural epithets of the other.
Third, while the cultures were different, there was no racial component to these epithets and there was none in Jesus' use of the term with the woman. Rather, Jesus was giving the woman the opportunity to demonstrate a faith lacking among his own people.
As long as we have enemies of the Christian faith and of Christians in general, we will meet with those who take cheap shots at our Scriptures and at the way we appropriate these Scriptures in our lives. One of those cheap shots is the ready-fire-aim methodology of pulling out the "race card." It's sad that those who know little about our Scriptures are willing to throw snippets at us when they snipe at us, but it's even more of a sad thing when we Christians don't know enough of our Scriptures to refute the cheap attacks.
A message to Jenny is that we will apply our own Scriptures to judge ourselves, but thanks for your offer to help.
Fugue:
Unless you're quoting the Gospel of Mark in the original Hebrew (possibly Greek), from a first edition known to have been written by Mark himself, any quote is as likely to be a misquote as not.
Baconsbud:
Where are you getting the information that someone named Mark actually wrote the Gospel Mark? You might want to check to see what theologists actually say about the Gospels.
JennyD:
. . . how does any of your extended comment relate to the subject matter of the article, anyway? You say nothing about the research demonstrating more religiosity = more racism.
How does your comment address the fact that Jesus used a derogatory term to refer to people outside of his "in-group", and said that "the children" should come first, before "dogs", whether they are "good" dogs or "bad" dogs being irrelevant?
Zeus:
Oh,hush chap. your religion is based on fear you would sit here and make these remarks to defend slavery, degrading women, and bigotry if you were given those scriptures. Look at all the religiously motivated violence “for gods” when will you finally come to terms when a person kills for scripture it is religiously motivated period. Same with the hate you preach to others who don’t accept your fairy tales, fear is all you know disguised as love. Love me or else. That is not a choice. That is an abusive boyfriend you keep making excuses for, which is quiet pitiful.
Cristian:
Charles, you took the introductory paragraph, found some theological fault with it, and clung to it, which I suspect you hope will spare you the need to address the actual data, the results of the study, the real point of the article. Is this an attempt at diversion, or a simple omission? To a lot of people, theological arguments are as relevant as astrological arguments, or arguments about alchemy: incredibly elaborate, involved and detailed speculation with no real bearing in the real world, serving only to deflect attention from shit that actually matters.
Xalem:
Reading the comments by Zeus above, one can see that a fervent atheist, like a fervent believer, can be very prejudicial and hateful. It is not the belief system that causes the hate, it is that people who are naturally disposed to hatred grab onto beliefs to justify the hatred. Even fervent atheists grab onto beliefs (beliefs about how destructive religion is) and treat the target of their anger as infantile. The Christian ethic "love your neighbor, love your enemy" should prevent racism, but it doesn't, because hatred is too powerful for a belief system to stop it. Any belief system, even democracy, even humanism, even modernity, even secularism, none of these prevented Abu Graib.
Baconsbud:
How do you get hate from what Zeus said. I probably would have said it a little differently but it would have come out as the same. Does that mean because I believe christianity is the main problem within the USA, I hate all christians? If you believe it does mean that then you must be using a different definition of what hate means.
ImaLionRarRarRar:
Xalem, the destructive nature of religion is not a belief, but a fact proven over and over throughout history. If people who are naturally disposed to hatred latch on to religion for justification, then why should I, or any person who has the capacity for love over hate, want to associate themselves with it? I was raised as a Christian, and attended a fundamentalist Christian school for 12 years, and I can say that my personal experiences have left me with nothing but bitterness for the religion. The blatant bigotry and hypocrisy displayed by 90% of the people around me was disgusting to be quite honest. I am not an atheist, but I am certainly no Christian. I guess if you had to label me it would be agnostic.
This is not an argument against God, but rather against any organized religion that gives people the entitlement for hate, discrimination, bigotry, hypocrisy, irrationality, and the murder of millions and millions of people. I'm not saying that secular lifestyles do not have the capacity to cause harm, but it certainly does not even come close to the horrors committed in the name of religion.
I think atheists have a right to treat religious people childishly, but only when their arguments are so similarly irrational, close minded and temper-tantrum prone as that of a child's. If anything the anger comes from the frustrations of trying to have a mature, logic based discussion with people so unwilling to concede, let alone listen to obvious rationality.
We should love our neighbors and enemies because it is the right thing to do, not because Jesus said so.
IamB:
"Only religious agnostics were racially tolerant." I appreciated this because it addresses one of the foundational evils of religion… a claim to certainty. In this case, we're talking about a claim to certainty about things that have no basis in a scientific reality. Religion has taught people to accept lying to themselves as a viable remedy for the uncertainty of life and the pain of being powerless victims of a random, physical universe that is utterly incapable of being concerned about an individual. The lie is that they are special and that they are allowed to have special, intimate knowledge about things that no rational person will dare claim to own.
But (and here's the thing), their bible practically commands them to be certain and condemns honest questioning. The agnostic is at least questioning him or herself… at least accepting the possibility that he or she may not honestly claim certainty about who god is, what he wants or how he wants us to conduct our lives.
When you give yourself license to lie to yourself, you surrender your ability to detect your own biases.
So no surprise that they will not recognize themselves in this article.
Mike_Daniels:
A precondition for faith is NOT knowing.
If God is omniscient, and thus knows all, how can He have...
Mike_Daniels:
I appreciate that you love all people. That's wonderful! But God hates them; the Bible says so...
Forgiveness:
As for the billions of other people who you explain "picked the wrong stories to believe in,"...
Forgiveness:
No, I believe God created human life so He may love them. I believe they sinned against His will and...
Mike_Daniels:
You're absolutely right: If a god revealed its existence, there would be no need for humans to...
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